9/31 The Editor is Tired

[darkemeralds]

Once up on a time, I took a Clarion workshop in which the instructor, a published author of speculative fiction, did That Thing to a friend of mine.

The friend submitted a promising story in a style beyond her skill level--a good idea naively executed. The instructor singled it out as the one submission in the class that was simply too bad to be critiqued. As far as I know, my friend never wrote anything again.

Anyone who loves stories enough to try to write one deserves better than what that lazy, thoughtless published author did to my friend all those years ago. That's why I felt compelled to spend three hours last night commenting on the novel whose author was spamming us all yesterday.

Now I need advice. When the author solicited "comments" I think she meant "praise and encouragement". When I asked her to clarify, she said she would welcome any feedback I wanted to give. I think my comments provide a concise fiction-remediation course, but she might see it differently.

Here's a representative sample of my remarks. Should I send them or not? Too harsh? Don't bother? Waste of electrons? Give it a shot? Helpful? What do my fellow writers think? How would you feel if these were comments on a story of yours? Would you get any value from them, or just feel bad? Am I wasting my time? Tilting at windmills?

Feedback is genuinely welcome.

• Is any of that important? I feel a bit like I'm supposed to focus for a moment on fine china, porcelain, and crystal, as if it's some kind of clue to what's going to happen next. If these mentions of the dishes are designed to make me realize that [Character] is a collector, or lives with his grandmother, then they're working. If note, I'd limit myself to a single mention.


• A) brunette is feminine and B) don't say "the brunette" OR "the brunet".


• A gaze can't have a color.


• Extraneous purple prose that repeats what you said, more clearly, in the previous sentence. Far from adding mood or setting the scene or revealing character or advancing the action, this type of description just brings the story to a halt.


• This and the previous paragraph suffer from too much detailed action. We don't care that the bottle lives behind the microwave. We don't care that the glass is crystal. We don't need to know that he crossed the room, corked the bottle, or put his glass in the sink. None of that builds plot, scene or character as far as I can tell.


• I just don't see a good way of shoehorning in that his blood is silver [that his eyes are crystal blue/that his hair is silver/that his cheekbones are high]. You're in his point of view: would he say these things about himself? In the middle of a fight?


• I get that you're trying to convey fury, a killing rage. I just don't think "shredding away at the dead heart" quite gets it done.


• Anytime you find yourself reaching for poetic alternative terms for something you've just said (like "heart" and "the organ under the beast's ribs" here), you are almost certainly repeating yourself anyway.

Comments

[chordatesrock]

I think it's fine if you (can find a way to) give acknowledgment of the author's vision, and (if true) that it's a worthy goal, and to talk about the ways the author did well (if any). If nothing you can say is positive, I feel like this review would hit the author hard. It might hit hard anyway but I don't think it would be career-endingly, dream-crushingly hard if it's leavened with the hope of doing better and an acknowledgment of the author's promise, and bitter pills are sometimes the best (or only) medicine.

[panisdead]

I would say send it, but first go through and strip out anything that even remotely resembles snark. You're coming across as quite arch here. Either she won't catch it, in which case she's probably not processing your writing advice either, or she'll catch it and find it mocking. If you don't know her, I'd say be as neutral as possible.

[twistedchick]

They're good comments, and reasonable ones.

[blueraccoon]

Seconded; I get that you're trying to be fair, but it comes across as snark.

[darkemeralds]

This is a very important idea. I thought about it, couldn't readily find a place for it in the format of Google Docs comments, and had kind of set it aside. I think a paragraph or two up front saying what I think is strong and promising in the work is vital. Thank you for the reminder.

[darkemeralds]

Funnily enough, I spent about an hour AFTER my three hours of editing editing the snark out of my comments. "Arch" wouldn't BEGIN to describe what I started with. But 24 hours' distance will probably let me see the remaining attitude. Thank you for the pointer.

I truly do want to be helpful to this writer (whether she likes it or not, dammit!) and I know I'm on thin ice. I appreciate the insight.

[darkemeralds]

Thanks. I definitely owe the job another pass when I'm less tired before sending it off.

[darkemeralds]

Thank you. I'm glad you think so. Upthread, a couple of people have voted "too snarky" and I think I agree that I haven't yet stripped out all of my attitude--which is probably why I so readily invoked the memory of the terrible Clarion workshop (guilt!).

I appreciate your reply.

[greghatcher]

For what it's worth, this is what I say to my kids in Young Authors. "Okay.Here's the thing. It's really awesome that you are sitting down and getting this done. Staring at a blank screen and making a story out of nothing is one of the hardest things there is. It's so hard that most people don't even finish. You finished. That's great. But that's not being DONE. That's just part one. Now you have to look at it and FIX it. This isn't something magical. It's a job. You can always make it better, and first drafts are never good enough. You just have to KNOW that and get over it. I never have sold a first draft ever in my life and I have been writing for money for over twenty years. It's part of being a pro. So before we get started, remember this-- I am treating you like a pro, because I don't know any other way to do this. I know it stings to have somebody tell you to take this part out or that part's not working, but remember that if I didn't think you could fix it I wouldn't bother talking to you about it. This is how professionals work. Okay? So let's do this."

And the kids always come through, they don't fight me on it. Some of them grumble but they usually can see what I mean when I point it out. Here is my very favorite story from class.

I was looking at one of our student submissions, with its author standing at my shoulder. And sometimes I get carried away, I let my professional voice get the better of me. I was showing her the typos she needed to fix, moving clauses here and there, applying the same ruthless editorial standards I’ve used for years.

Then out of the corner of my eye I saw her lip starting to tremble a little. I suddenly realized, My God, no one’s ever done this with her before. Dial it down a little before she starts crying.

So I stopped and said, gently, “You know this is just EDITING, right? I’m not scolding you; you’re not in trouble or anything like that. If you disagree with something I’m suggesting, say so. It’s totally okay. Writers disagree with editors all the time.”

And she straightened her shoulders and stuck her jaw out and said, “No, it’s fine. I get it. This is about making it better.”

I was awestruck. She’s TWELVE. I assure you there are writers in their fifties, who do it for a living, who are less graceful about a rough editorial conference.

If my twelve-year-olds can hack it, then your client-person ought to be able to, and if she can't, well, community college extension creative-writing courses are full of ladies like her and I'm sure she'll find one to preen in. Softballing it does her no favors.

Note-- I found typos in THIS and was compelled to fix them. No first draft EVER survives.

[darkemeralds]

Fair warning: I'm going to plagiarize the hell out of your opening salvo there. That's fantastic. I promise I'll reword it in my own voice.

I didn't really plan on sending just the bald comments without a lead-in, but I was wavering because it felt like an exercise in softening the blow. What you've said here reminds me that I need to make explicit to this beginning novelist that I do believe in her story (or I wouldn't have done this).

And God knows, I remember the fantasy of that pure, beautiful first draft, untarnished by actual logic and effort. I still have darlings that I love (and sometimes one does write a beautiful, perfect phrase that never needs any more work--but only a phrase, never a whole paragraph. Ever.)

Thank you for weighing in. This is great.

[scribblemoose]

I agree with others who say this is too harsh, especially as it's balanced towards the critical. And I think she needs to clarify whether she wants it workshopped or edited. There's a big difference. What I think you may have done is give her a thorough, explained edit. I suspect what she needs (and can take) at his point is more of a supportive learning experience.

I haven't seen the original fic - if you could provide a link I'd be happy to give examples of how I'd phrase your criticisms as a writing teacher.

It's really good of you to want to try so hard for this person. I hope they are genuine in their appeal for help. It worries me that they don't really know what they're asking for.

[legionseagle]

I'm yet to be convinced a gaze doesn't have a colour - that is, I'm quite prepared to believe that this person needs guidance as to their (mis)use of figurative language, but I'm always rather wary about the sort of criticism that says, "eyes can't fall, gazes can't pierce, looks can't kill" because it seems to be an attack on the principle of using metaphor altogether, as opposed to pointing out mixed, cliched or inappropriate metaphors, and that can be unhelpful to beginner writers who come across figurative language in stuff they read.

[linaerys]

I think those are probably all things she needs to hear. I like to do the criticism sandwich, with praise on either side of the criticism.

I also like to frame critique in terms of opportunity. Like, during this description, scene, passage, you have an opportunity to show us something.

I don't know the piece, but I also like to work on a story's major structural and character problems before honing in on style, which a lot of that is. I wonder if you want to structure your critique, but framing style criticisms as secondary? I mean, if there are structural or character issues. I assume there are.

The kind of prose you're describing in the critique would drive me crazy, but some people do like purple prose.

There's probably an opportunity for you to say, "I loved x, y and z about this work, but I wouldn't be able to read the whole thing/want to pay for it, because of these other issues that were getting in the way of enjoying what could otherwise be a very compelling story."

On the other hand...I've never been told that a story was too bad to critique, and that's a terrible thing to say. But it's also important for a writer to develop a thick skin, and while I feel badly that someone never wrote again after hearing that, and it shouldn't have been said, I do think that if she really wanted to be a writer, she would have eventually dusted herself off.

But the other thing writers need to do is choose the right people to critique their work. I'm a worst case scenario person, so before someone critiques my work, I always ask myself, "What's the worst that could happen? What would it mean to me if they hated it? Am I prepared for that?" And I am. Because no one could tell me anything that would make me stop writing. It's stubborn, and foolish, and possibly misguided, but it's what a writer needs, because you can't guarantee that someone won't give you really painful critique.

Anyway, sorry about that, lots of rambling. I do agree that the tone might be a little snarky? I'd probably rewrite this:

Is any of that important? I feel a bit like I'm supposed to focus for a moment on fine china, porcelain, and crystal, as if it's some kind of clue to what's going to happen next. If these mentions of the dishes are designed to make me realize that [Character] is a collector, or lives with his grandmother, then they're working. If note, I'd limit myself to a single mention.

To begin with:

"This is a lot of detail that might not be useful to the reader right now." Then your excellent points about character/grandmother.

[darkemeralds]

I sort of regret leaving out of this post some of the more positive comments I could find to make, because I made some--but it's true that I haven't emphasized them enough. I'm so glad I asked my circle for feedback! Going through these comments has transformed my view of what I'm doing here and why.

You've nailed a big part of the problem--the writer doesn't know what she wants. She's that inexperienced. I doubt if she's ever written any kind of fiction before.

I've refrained from citing or linking to the piece itself because it's beginner's writing, extremely unpolished, and my challenge is to make editorial comments on it just as I would on the work of a more experienced writer. I'm beginning to realize that that's part of my problem here: it's not fair to treat a work this embryonic with the same editorial scalpel I'd use on a pro or pro-level fic writer.

That said, if you're curious, the work is publicly available here.

[darkemeralds]

You're quite right about the issue of figurative language. Even I, Ms Spock, don't believe that prose in fiction needs to be absolutely logical, and a comment like "a gaze can't be red" doesn't at all say what I really meant to say--to wit, that "his red gaze" is one of a dozen or so instances in 2500 words where the writer has used an overripe trope of fanfic and lurid romance. Any one or two of them would be fine, but all twelve cumulatively in such a short space just feel hackneyed.

There really is a tendency in beginning writers, especially young ones, to add high-flown phrases and metaphors (or in this particular case, similes out the wazoo). I think there's a fear of not sounding "fictional enough" without them. And it's true that a lot of the most popular genre fiction trades heavily in that kind of language.

A challenge for me in editing and beta-reading is always where to draw the line between helping the writer polish a piece and helping the writer write just like I do. Every critiquing workshop I've been to has tended to devolve into the latter. I'd like to do better than that for this beginning writer. I appreciate your comment. It's been very useful to me.

[scribblemoose]

I agree, it is obviously a beginner's work and I think it needs more of a teacher's eye than an editor's. There's a huge risk that you might turn her off writing all together. It always rings alarm bells for me when people don't know what they want critiquing!

Perhaps if you generalise some of your points, that might help? They are very direct, and while I LOVE direct feedback like that, a beginner might take it all very personally.

If I can help any further please ask. I'm always happy to encourage beginning writers to improve, if they've asked for help, and you have neatly identified the key points she needs to work on.

[legionseagle]

I thought it was probably a case of over-used and or completely dotty figurative stuff (I mean, if the chap has silver blood goodness only knows what his gaze actually looks like - whatever colour his eyes may be would look quite peculiar against a skin whose underlying capilliaries were a funny colour.)

As I believe I may have mentioned one or two times on my blog, I spent some time in a crit group which had a number of members who did to death the "write like I do" approach to critiquing, including having rules about how many gerunds were "allowed" and deleting "had" in the pluperfect form.


Languagelog refer to a tendency in education that they call "Because they might do it too much, tell them not to do it at all" and I suspect it gets used in creative writing courses all too much.

[darkemeralds]

Not rambling at all! I am so impressed and delighted (and surprised!) at the amount of thoughtful feedback I've gotten on this post. Your point about opportunity is excellent! I had not thought in those terms at all, and now I'm going to.

But the other thing writers need to do is choose the right people to critique their work.

This person "chose" to ask the whole wide world for comments and critique, clearly not knowing what she was getting into. Her writing is...well, amateur, to say the least, and you might say she was "asking for" whatever kind of snarky feedback she gets. I removed a whole bunch of snark from my comments before even posting them here, but the more I've thought about everyone's remarks, the more I'm inclined to start all over again from a completely different perspective. I don't know that this writer "deserves" a lot of my time and effort any more than she "deserves" mean-spirited snark, but I do know that I want to be a better person--and a more valuable editor--than that.

You've helped. Thank you.

[linaerys]

Oh, I agree, by spamming the whole internet, she did not choose the right people, and she will learn that the hard way. You are generous for giving her your time and energy.

Glad to help!

[darkemeralds]

Well, it's certainly easier to say "never ever do this at all" than it is to launch a theoretical discussion of the nuances. And some minds learn best that way--strip it down to the basics, and add nuance later. Others want the whole big picture right at the beginning, and want to blaze their own trail to understanding.

As to this writer, I suspect she's the type to grab everything, run with it, and learn by experience (rather than by rule or precept) what to keep and what to discard. I believe I'll proceed on that basis. Thank you! Another great idea.

Oh, and I picture this silver-blooded character as being a bit blue, like a painting of Krishna.

[darkemeralds]

Thanks. The very last thing I want to be is the person who implied that she should never write again.

I've devised a whole new approach to my commentary based on all the wonderful feedback I've gotten on this post, and I'm really excited about it.

[azurelunatic]

My old writers group used to use a 10-point pain scale when asking how vigorous the writer wanted the concrit to be. It was very helpful for everyone.

[darkemeralds]

Speaking as someone who loves quantifying things,, I think that's an excellent idea! I'm going to use it as part of my intake on future editing clients. Thanks for the great tip!

[darkemeralds]

I regret that I didn't quite get your "opportunity" concept into the commentary I just sent off to the author. Darn! I made up my mind to praise, then single out the big three areas for improvement, then praise a bit more.

I hope the opportunity concept will be implicit for her. I will definitely remember it for my own future use because, guess what! I'm making myself an editing template out of all the fantastic suggestions I've received as comments on this post.

[toft]

It was really helpful and interesting to read this post and the comments - thank you!

[darkemeralds]

I got a huge amount myself out of the conversation. I love how the collective mind of a group of passionate people can triangulate on brilliant solutions.

[despina_moon]

Personally, I think this is wonderful feedback and I'm not seeing any snark (trust me, I've seen very personal attacks and this isn't even the same zip code). That being said, from the feedback you're giving, she seems very new to the writing game. Not knowing her, I'm not sure your comments would put her off or not. Sometimes even gentle critiques and throw some folks for a loop.

I, however, would love to have your help! I may be knocking at your door one day!

Good luck, my friend.

[darkemeralds]

Thank you!

I did agree with those who felt there was quite a bit of snark remaining, so I re-did the whole thing. You're quite right, though: even very constructive, positive critique can be painful. This young writer seems very confident by my own standards--she put a rough first draft out publicly, the spammed Dreamwidth (and, presumably, Tumblr) asking for feedback. I don't think my commentary will have much impact on her either way.

What are you working on? I'd love to beta for you.

[tehomet]

I would send them, but bookended with praise. The spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down, etc. FWIW I think your critiques are phrased in such a way that the author should learn from them if he or she has a braincell in his or her head. You're not just pointing out the flaws, you're making him or her think about why these things are mistakes.

[darkemeralds]

Your advice matches that of the majority, and (as you may have seen) I ended up sending a far, far milder version of this commentary. I'll probably never know how (or even if) it was received, but I sure learned a lot myself doing it.

[tehomet]

Yes, I'm all caught up now so I did see the version you sent and it was very diplomatic.

Thank you for posting these pieces about your editing process. It's very reassuring to me as a beta reader to know that I wasn't doing or saying anything too bizarre or too unhelpful. I'm not a writer so there was always that concern that I was not being as much help as an actual proper author would have been.

[darkemeralds]

There is a broad and hazy line--more like a mild fog-bank--between "reader but not writer" and "actual proper author". I don't know at what point one crosses into the latter territory, but I can tell you this: your level of literate self-expression puts you well into it, and a lot of "proper authors" I've read are nowhere near it. In my opinion, of course.

Another--and quite legitimate--way of looking at "writerhood" is "having written something. Blog posts count. Again, in my opinion.

[tehomet]

Goodness, that's - thank you.