Oh! And this!
3/7/13 21:07![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
darkemeraldsI didn't expect to see a gay country-rock music video anytime soon, let alone one as well done as this one.
All-American Boy, by Steve Grand. It's fantastic. Watch it.
ravurian pointed me to it. Thanks, dude! I bought the song, left a note for the musician, and have been pimping it all over the place.
All-American Boy, by Steve Grand. It's fantastic. Watch it.
ravurian pointed me to it. Thanks, dude! I bought the song, left a note for the musician, and have been pimping it all over the place.Tags:
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4/7/13 11:15 (UTC)I liked it, except for when I didn't, and what I didn't like - what I found problematic - was the issue of consent. I kept imagining a woman in the role of the straight friend in the water, and wondering what her options of polite refusal would have been given the strength of his launch at her. I dunno. On the one part, visibility, yay. On the other part: shortly after breaking up with your significant other you get unexpectedly grabbed and assaulted on the mouth by a friend who has been plying you with alcohol, whilst skinny dipping.
I'm conflicted, because the traditional media modes for my people are usually sexless best friend, comedy turn, victim, predator, or as in crisis. It's nice to see something expressing unembarrassed, unpoliticised, romantic and sexual desire in song as the straight people get to, but privileging the one desiring over the one being desired in the video is problematic, particularly where the one being desired is vulnerable. Yes, the straight dude said no, and no means no, and he was heard and nothing further happened. But he was never given the opportunity to say yes. The no came about as a response to an action - a physical imposition - not an enquiry. And yes, that happens all the time in RL I know, and maybe it's not that big a deal? Except I kind of think it is?
I am so conflicted about this, not least because what I wanted to happen was either a kinder demurral, a clear confirmation of buddy status (maybe unrealistic?) rather than literally climbing onto the nearest available woman (also problematic), or a reciprocation. Maybe this was a more realistic presentation of a best case outcome? And at least there was no gay-panic style physical violence.
I just don't know whether I am supposed to applaud our dude for taking a chance, or feel sorry for him for misreading signals, or condemn him for taking advantage of his friend's post-breakup drunken nudity. Discuss?
One Sings, The Other Doesn't
4/7/13 15:11 (UTC)In addition to the greater physical vulnerability of women to men than men to other men, young women often have to make a very delicate calculus, which has little or nothing to do with their own desire. They have to provide sexual services on demand without being perceived as sluts. So far, this obligation is not imposed on young men.
The "consent is sexy" ficathon was kind of whistling past the graveyard, because sometimes passion doesn't survive negotiation. If there isn't a power imbalance that prevents the recipient from saying No, I think it's not immoral to make a physical pass at someone. Sometimes one appears more attractive while giving someone a big smooch than while going through a questionnaire: "Hello, there, Desirable Person! I wish to engage in sexual behaviors with you! On a scale of one to five, how would you rate these sexual behaviors?"
However, if the other person says, Dude, stop it! I agree that there is a moral obligation to stop it, to wait a reasonable time before renewing the application, and to scale down the next approach because the first was rejected.
It looked to me like the girlfriend drove away because she was angry at Non-Singing Dude for flirting. (I wasn't sure whose car it was btw--it really hurts if not only do you get shot down, but your buddy's girlfriend STEALS YOUR CAR.) And I'm not sure if it was a breakup so much as "See what happens if you annoy me? You have to walk all the way back to the barbecue."
We also don't know what happened before the events of the video--the thought balloon over Singing Dude's head might have been "Isn't this a great time for another one of those drunk hook-ups we never talk about?"
My own fic of this is that Singing Dude finds out that, while Non-Singing Dude isn't interested, that chubby guy in the Physics Club wants to play Dungeons & Dragons, if you know what I mean and I think you do.
Re: One Sings, The Other Doesn't
6/7/13 00:31 (UTC)I can see that your reading of the video is different to mine. I can also see that by introducing the idea of replacing Straight Dude (SD) with a woman with the intention of illustrating a point I may have muddied the water. It has been my experience that people do not always parse uncomfortable sexual situations between men in the same way as they would viewing similar situations between men and women - particularly in the YAY MEN KISSING arena of fandom. By framing it in the context of a differently-sexed couple I'd hoped to open a dialogue about my discomfort in a way that might be more accessible. If I've understood you correctly, you've dismissed the point that men can and often are vulnerable to each other on the basis that they can never be as vulnerable as women are to men. I mean, that seems like faulty logic to me and does not at all reflect my experience of having been vulnerable. Men, after all, are not built to a factory-standard.
Though this point is less about the video than it is about your response to my comment, I would like to discuss it. It's a fact that men are likelier to be physically stronger than women, but is it relevant when talking about the likelihood of men being vulnerable to each other? Men are not all equally physically strong, equally experienced. We are also subject to social-, physical-, emotional-, economic-, racial-, sexuality- and class-based notions of masculinity and worth that mean that instances of male-on-male sexual assault are chronically under-reported for reasons of shame. We can feel uncomfortable, threatened, or trapped by another man; this isn't diminished by a shared sex. It isn't absent the threat of sexual violence. There are men who get a massive kick out of menacing other men.
I was making a point with the language I used to describe the kiss. I saw that The Singer (TS) grabbed the back of SD's neck to hold him in place. I noticed that TS rose up in the water in order to kiss downwards, thereby forcing SD to sink lower in the water, taking a position of power that automatically made SD more vulnerable. I took note of how how quickly SD put physical distance between them as soon as he was able - both in the water, and at the party later - and read the expression on his face as shocked.
I don't think 'assault on the mouth' is necessarily overstating it. SD pushed away, sought the company of other people in a public place, attempted to placate and evade TS, who had followed him. To me, these things read as a desire to be sheltered or shielded from the possibility of further advances and as a tacit plea for rescue from pursuit. TS presumably wanted to... what? Apologise? Explain how SD had misunderstood, was over-reacting, was just taking it the wrong way? That's all about making himself feel better, not at all about the person who found his attentions unwelcome. If any of those phrases sound familiar from discussions about rape culture and male privilege, that's because this is the same discussion.
With regard to 'plying with alcohol', well, yes we saw SD drinking from a red cup at the party, but that distinctively shaped bottle was in TS' possession right from the start of the video. It was explicitly his by demonstration. It was definitely the only alcohol shown in the road trip portion of the video, and we only ever see it passed from TS to SD: each time it's proffered, not requested. So 'plying' is a loaded word, but not an unreasonable one.
I mean, even without the video the lyrics are a bit creepy (for reference, they're here: http://stevegrand.bandcamp.com/). With the video it moves from idle fantasy into physical action, which adds another dimension. TS sought SD out, saw he was with someone and inveigled his way into their company. Joined them on a road trip and pissed the girl off so bad that she left them drunk in the middle of nowhere, at which point he made his move.
[Young women] have to provide sexual services on demand without being perceived as sluts. So far, this obligation is not imposed on young men.
Isn't it? Not by women, perhaps, but what about by other men? What about on the gay scene? What about inequities in age and experience? What about the stereotype that all gay men are cock-hungry whores? What about the pressure to conform, to fit in, to be a part of it? What about the rejection that a large number of young gay men still experience from their family and friends? How might that place them in terms of what they feel obliged to do?
If there isn't a power imbalance that prevents the recipient from saying No, I think it's not immoral to make a physical pass at someone.
You don't think there's a power imbalance inherent in taking someone by surprise without ascertaining at minimum a shared interest or sexuality? You think it's unsexy to check whether someone's into it? You don't see that there's a difference between 'I fancy you, can I kiss you' and 'please fill out this questionnaire'?
Re: One Sings, The Other Doesn't
6/7/13 01:17 (UTC)One of the lynchpins of romance is that the sheer quantity of one's longing will generate a reciprocal longing in the person you yearn for. I think TS kind of bought into this. He's also very good-looking, which has been known to alter other people's calculus about the desirability of engaging in sexual behavior with someone. It's possible, though certainly not inevitable, that physical contact will arouse desire when a verbal request will not. (And the converse is also possible--that someone thinks something sexual will be pleasurable but in practice it proves not to be.)
Power in an older person/younger person situation is complicated. One hopes that it will always make both people happy, but that is not the inevitable result of any relationship. In a happy outcome, the younger person feels desirable, valued, and gains by mentorship, opportunities, and perhaps financially, and the older person feels renewed by contact by youth and beauty. But one or both may feel used and exploited.
It looked to me like a bunch of young people went to a party to get drunk and act stupid. SD's girlfriend was mad at him because he was treating her with more than an average amount of stupid.
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6/7/13 19:13 (UTC)But the video introduces all the elements of coercion and non-consent that you bring up. I don't think it overlooks those issues or glorifies non-consent. I like that the singer is rejected (arguably more nicely than he deserves), and that he does take "no" for an answer. I can see regret and shame as well as just plain old pouting in him at the end of the piece.
I'm not personally disturbed by the kiss being the question, though I agree that in real life an actual question with actual words would be preferable. The kiss, in the story, is both cowardly and coercive--I can understand exactly where it came from and feel a certain amount of shame about that at the same time.
Mostly, I'm impressed that the video opens all these questions, just puts them out there, and leaves so much room for discussion.
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7/7/13 22:37 (UTC)Well, for what it's worth, our discussion has been enlightening for me.
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